Training Talk with Derek Evely (Part 2)

Last week I posted a discussion I had with Derek Evely regarding training theory. Despite it’s length, that was just part one. Part two is below and part three is on the way soon. All of these touch on a common theme: discussing how to implement Bondarchuk’s methods. For those of you unfamiliar with Coach Evely’s background, he is currently the director of the Loughborough (UK) University High Performance Centre. He had the opportunity to learn from Bondarchuk first hand when they worked together in Kamloops, and has been fine tuning his approach ever since. As I mentioned in the last post, to get the most out of this interview it helps to have a little understanding of Bondarchuk’s approach to training. You can learn more about that through this link, or by reading Part I. If you have any questions, feel free to ask them in the comments below.

Part 1: Turning Theories Into Practice (17 May 2011)

Part 2: More About Hammer Throw Training

Maximum Strength Training

Coach Evely with Sophi Hitchon, the UK record holder at just 19 years old. Photo used with permission from Jonathan Mulkeen.

Martin: As I was saying, it might seem strange to some people but I’ve been able to make strength gains despite never lifting at a higher intensity.

Derek: I think that the single most difficult hurdle in describing Dr. B’s methodology is interpretation. I’ve done a number of presentations both with Dr. B. and without him, and I’ve talked to a lot of throws coaches about this because they hear the stories; they hear it about Dylan most of all, how he doesn’t really lift heavy, he doesn’t lift anything over a certain amount of weight, and it really messes with a lot of people’s heads and they really battle with that kind of concept. And I see why, but the biggest problem with it is that people look at it in such black and white terms, and they struggle with getting what the real message is.

And the real message is not that you don’t do maximal strength, or even that maximal strength doesn’t transfer, the real message is how much do you need and once you’re there then what are you going to do? People think that Bondarchuk’s message is “don’t do any maximal strength”. That is not it at all. You absolutely need a certain level of it, and you need a fairly high level relative to most athletes. Let’s face it; you’re not going to throw 20m in the shot with only a 100 kilo bench. Maybe someone’s done it, but it is going to be the exception not the rule. So absolutely you need it. The problem is we love the weight room, especially in North America and here in Britain. At the point where the pursuit of absolute strength starts taking away from the throwing, and it can take away from it really easily and really quickly, then you have to ask yourself is this all worth it and is there something else I could be doing or implementing, perhaps another direction, that may pay bigger dividends. In order to get very strong in a short period of time you have to lift a lot and it will really affect your throwing. If this is your plan, then fine, but as we know block periodization schemes (by Verkhoshanki’s definition, not the misleading title given to Dr. B’s work) are difficult to implement and can wreak havoc on event-specific abilities. You have to look at it over the long term.

To me it is always been that the biggest struggle is getting that concept through to people. They see it one way or the other… no balance or rational implementation. And its unfortunate, but I guess it is the black and white recipe mentality that is out there with a lot of people. You have to make judgments for each and every single athlete you coach. And their programs are all going to look different, or be implemented differently, based upon their needs. It is a simple concept, really.

The problem with Mr. B. is that he cannot discuss things in English on this level so you get fairly straightforward black/white, wet/dry answers from him… and it makes things hard to absorb.

MB: If you get into it then he sometimes just gets frustrated and just says, “No. No.”

DE: Exactly. That is the other thing too… he has had so many conversations and done so many lectures on this that he gets frustrated quite easily these days. But in regards to maximal strength, I’ll tell you something; when he took over Dylan’s program, Dylan was incredibly strong. And although we did more heavy lifting than he does now, I was actually really cautious with him through the years that we didn’t go too heavy with him because there was such a potential for abuse. I always kept him within 4-6 reps range. He loved doing it and he loved getting strong and he really thought that was his forte, but he was way stronger than anybody needs to be to throw far. So it certainly didn’t hurt him when Mr. B came along and started in another direction… he was ready for it.

I don’t know if you remember, but Dylan struggled that first year with Dr. B. He threw 19.83 prior to Dr. B’s arrival and was progressing quite well. Then Mr. B came and we handed over the program that summer and the next year he threw 20.62, but he only did it in the one meet. He didn’t throw a single meet further than 19.83 that whole year if I remember right, except for the one meet in Kamloops that he had this massive series of throws. I think this relative lack of improvement was in part due to his own struggling with the change in programs. Before the 20.62m he struggled with the concept of not lifting heavy, or as heavy as we were. I remember in the first few months under Dr. B and I just kept saying to him, “Just put your head down, don’t ask questions, and do what he says.” And I have to say that it is a testament to Dylan the man because he was really loyal to me and our approach, so it was difficult for him. And then, of course, he eventually came around to Dr. B’s ways, and now he has never looked back and that has made all the difference in the world. Now he has bought into it 100% and it works. And of course now we have the seen the same result with Kibwe.

I should caution people who read this that perhaps Dylan is not the best example to look at when examining this concept of strength transfer in Dr. B’s program… his is an extreme example. As I said earlier, he was a very strong guy both naturally and also due to the fact that I had him from 14 years to 25 years old and I was able to prepare him properly… i.e. develop and cultivate him for future high performance training. While he sometimes remembers it a bit differently, we never did a lot of maximal strength in his development. We pretty much stuck to 65-80% loads, sometimes 85%, and moved things as fast as possible, but when he was using 85% loads he was using a lot of weight simply because he was so strong out of the gate. But other than bench we rarely went into the 1-3 rep range and max intensities… in fact, the year before Dr. B came we focused mainly on speed-strength because I thought already that he was strong enough… we kept loads at 65-80% and moving them as fast as possible across 4-6-8 reps. But 65% of his 1RM at the time was still a lot of weight, so he was still developing a great deal of basic strength.

Where we went wrong was the emphasis on the strength program. Even though we didn’t lift as much as many other programs, if I had to do it all over again I would have had him throw more and lift less.

So my point here is that he had such a huge reserve of strength when Dr. B came he was able to make the shift quite easily in a physical sense because in fact it was exactly what he needed: more throwing / special exercises and less lifting. But that may not be the same for everyone in such a dramatic fashion. But, as you say, the program Mr. B employs still develops maximal strength, it just does it in a different fashion and across a longer period… and I believe this approach to be more rational. Even a coach who is presented with a “weak” athlete needs to consider this approach and adapt as needed; it is not the ins and outs that one needs to consider but the philosophy that underpins the program.

Flexible Approaches to Bondarchuk’s System

Martin: I’ve been to some training camps with Primoz Kozmus and he did not have nearly as much strength as Dylan when he was a junior. As a result, even though his coach before retirement based everything on Bondachuk, they used higher intensities and were pushing the weights a bit more. But to accomplish that they were not lifting 10 times a week like the Kamloops training group does. He would alternate weight lifting each day, with Olympic lifts and squats one day followed by special strength the next. You could work the higher weights and intensity because you are only doing it every other day instead of four times in two days. It worked out for him.

Derek: That is very similar to what we do now. But, remember that this is not necessarily that different from what Dr. B does when he is employing a 2 program approach. Here I caution people to not think in the “right” or “wrong” paradigm. For example, in many development cycles (but not all) I do Sophie’s and Mark’s on two different programs, a day one and day two. We alternate those. We’ll do cleans on one and some form of legs on the other; a squat or step up variation. Each main exercise is followed by a group of ancillary exercises. We just keep repeating that until we reach peak form. And yes, this enables us to up the intensity a little from perhaps what Dr. B does, but as I said, I feel my guys at this stage need that. Then, once we get the program (cycle) set there will be two different days that are alternated and we don’t change the content at all until it is time to change… in the case of Sophie that means entry into peak form and in the case of Mark every 2-3 because he is on a variation program. There is no wave loading of volume and intensity.

Resting and the Offseason

Martin: You mentioned earlier a little about rest periods during the year. I’d like your thoughts on the off-season. With Dr. B. like the off season is non-existent or very, very short. We just train throughout the year. Are you doing the same? Just taking a few weeks off?

Derek: Yes. I learned that the hard way with Sophie last year. After World Juniors she took 3 weeks off. It was probably a mistake because when she came back, it took her a full period of training to get back to what you would call a reasonable shape. She just struggled getting back into it. So I think probably this next year we’ll do nothing more than a week, two tops. She cannot afford to take that much time off. I don’t regret doing it because she needed the mental rest, but physically it was tough… I think it is better the give a week or two extra rest and then get right back into it with the next development period.

Martin: Every once in a while I’ll read an interview with a college or pro thrower that says they got tired after the season and took a few months off. Every time I think “ooh this is going to be a tough year” and most of the time it turns out that way.

Derek: I learned that with sprinters, again the hard way. This is not a foreign concept to me because with sprinters it is very much like that. This is what a lot of coaches don’t realize. When you get an athlete and they are in peak form, or over a number of years they’ve risen to a high level, if you lose that either through injury or forced time off, it is very difficult to get back to where you were. Very difficult. Once they’re up there you really don’t want to let them get away from it for too long. Sure, different program designs may call for variances in the amount of specific work and intensities, but we are talking here about allowing the system to get away from specific work completely or near-completely for weeks or months on end. This is why traditional stage methodologies are not ideal… especially for speed-power events; why go back each year at the beginning and train as if you are out of shape when 2 or 3 weeks before that you were in the shape of your life? I’m sure in some cases long rest periods are necessary, but for me I would just really try not to let an athlete get into that situation in the first place. It’s a very long, slow process over years that gets an athlete to a really high level of specific fitness so to purposefully direct them away from that state makes no sense to me. And the more talented they are the more this is true. To get them to a really high level, once they are there, you cannot let them get too far away from it, otherwise it just takes too long to get it back. In some cases, they don’t come back.

Martin: I have first hand knowledge of that one. My PR is from back in 2007 and after that throw I worked for the next 12 weeks and only squeezed a few training sessions in. The next two seasons after that were a struggle and I’m only now starting to come back around. Other factors were involved, but I still think that was one of the big contributors.

Part 3: Applying Bondarchuk’s Methods to Other Events (30 May 2011)